Posts by Giles Gray

8

JWs- “SCIENCE IS A DISTRACTION TO MY FAITH"

by Giles Gray in

“after our discussion last week i asked myself ‘do i need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what i believe’, and my answer was that i don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what i already know with my faith…”the above is a quote from a conversation i had with two jws who called on me at the weekend.

i knew that the standards of the jws had declined, but what i experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.amazingly they came back, but this time i had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.they were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible.

i had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and i asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans.

Giles Gray

Sorry for not getting back to everyone sooner. I've had a bad eye infection.

Half banana -" ... I think you had a very good approach to stick to things which the WT has no sensible comment on, namely the evidence for evolution in atavistic organs etc"

Thank you. Having left many years ago, I no longer have any need to confront the JWs with 'apostate' topics like I did when it was all still raw.

These days, as an ex-ex-JW, I tend to approach debating with JWs more from the vantage point of an anthropological study. I love to see how the JWs deal with subjects I know they have no answers to, not even in their societies literature.

I can't agee with you more about people learning geology at school. I don't know what the curriculum teaches nowadays, but even if schools taught each period from the Cambrian era onwards, it would be a great exposure of the true history of life as opposed to the biblical creation account.

Vidiot -" Hit me like a ton of bricks, immediately followed by the question, "are they crazy, or just plain stupid*???"

Ha! I understand your sentiments, but I'm not sure they are either 'crazy' (in the classical sense) or 'stupid'.

I believe these JWs are wilfully ignorant. These people calling on me are very intelligent, as were the Mormons who called on me a few months prior.

I'm sure if they studied the evidence objectively they would be able to fully grasp the implications of the points I am making.

I think they are all too aware of that. It is that reason they refain from investigating further. I am just surprised they would so blatantly reveal such a stance to someone in the ministry. Quite a confession.

8

JWs- “SCIENCE IS A DISTRACTION TO MY FAITH"

by Giles Gray in

“after our discussion last week i asked myself ‘do i need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what i believe’, and my answer was that i don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what i already know with my faith…”the above is a quote from a conversation i had with two jws who called on me at the weekend.

i knew that the standards of the jws had declined, but what i experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.amazingly they came back, but this time i had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.they were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible.

i had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and i asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans.

Giles Gray

“After our discussion last week I asked myself ‘do I need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what I believe’, and my answer was that I don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what I already know with my faith…”

The above is a quote from a conversation I had with two JWs who called on me at the weekend. I knew that the standards of the JWs had declined, but what I experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.

Amazingly they came back, but this time I had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.

They were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible. I had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and I asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans. I also asked them to look at a video that went into the laryngeal nerve in giraffes. This was in response to the claim of intelligent design. All very controversial topics that I thought they should know about. They had said on their previous visit that they had never heard of these vestiges, so it was going to be interesting to see how they coped with such facts of nature.

One of the reasons why it was going to be so interesting is the fact that there is nothing in their literature that tackles the topics that I had sent them. So what were they going to do without the help and support of the Watchtower?

It didn’t take too long to find out. The first thing they did when they came back at the weekend was to read me something from a creationist website. What stood out to me was when the JW read from the creationist website, it was evident that she didn’t have a clue what she was reading. She struggled to pronounce some of the technical words in the article and you could tell from the way that she was reading it that she didn’t understand the implications of what the article was saying.

Because I suspected that they didn’t understand it, the first question I asked them both was how they felt about it. They were stumped. The best they could do was just to repeat a few phrases that they could remember from what the girl had just read and say that it stood to reason in relation to the information I had sent them.

The ensuing conversation ended up more of a lesson about the basics of the theory of evolution than it did a debate about the technicalities of the specifics that I had challenged them with two weeks previously. I found it very disappointing, but I half expected it at the same time.

What was astounding was how bold their opinion was on a topic that they were clearly ignorant of. I don’t mean that as a pejorative. But what they said exposed just how little they knew about even the most elementary facts of the Theory of Evolution.

Some of their misperceptions were very clichéd. For example, one misconception they came out with was the idea that evolution was the beginning of life. From that point they promoted the idea that evolution requires faith. They then went on to ask why evolution is only a ‘Theory’. Later on, they claimed that the theory of evolution teaches that man evolved from chimpanzees and monkeys and they asked me why there is no evidence that we are evolving from chimpanzees and monkeys today.

Their lack of knowledge was far below a general education. At one point we were talking about how the migration of dolphins came about from land animals to sea dwelling creatures. One of the JWs thought that they had a winning point to make by saying that land animals have a completely different breathing system to dolphins. She pointed out to me that land animals can’t breath under water. She was totally shocked when I replied to her the fact that dolphins can’t breath under water either. It was one of the many moments when they were stunned. She honestly didn’t know that dolphins breath air through a blow hole. That is quite shocking ignorance of the natural world. She honestly thought that dolphins were the same as fish. It made no impression when I explained that dolphins were mammalian and fish were not.

They talked to me about the fact that a fish can’t breath out of water. They said that “the minute the fish comes out of water it would no longer be able to breath and would (subsequently) die”. She had no concept that sea creatures living by the side of the water would have adapted to breathing air long before they migrated onto land.

We then went onto the topic of cross breading of species. This point always tends to bring out the paradox in their belief. It would be interesting to see how they would cope with this paradox, but until they understand the fundamental aspects of the theory of evolution, they are never going to be able to recognise the obvious paradox their belief has.

Their answer to cross breading is to point out that the bible speaks of creating ‘kinds’. So they claim that a donkey and a horse are the same ‘kind’ of animal as described in the bible. They also claimed that a lion and a tiger are also of the same ‘kind’.

But when challenged with the fact that these separate species can bring forth offspring, they went onto use the phrase ‘mutations’ to describe these hybrids. But later on they claimed these animals are ‘kinds’ and they are “one and the same”. So if these species of animals have diversity in the same ‘kind’, doesn’t that mean they are evolving? If Noah only took on the ark one ‘kind’ of animal, how come there are so many variations of species now?

But it got better. They talked about the cross bread that results from mating a lion with a tiger, otherwise known as a liger. They went on to tell me all about the fact that a liger has a shorter life span than a lion or a tiger and are generally not as healthy. They didn’t see the obvious contradiction that comes from this fact. If these cats are the same ‘kind’, why is it that the liger is weaker than both the lion and the tiger from which it comes from? If lions and tigers are just one ‘kind’, there should be no detrimental effect from breading from the separate species of that one ‘kind’. So why does this happen? Why is a mule born infertile if it is the result of two of the same ‘kind’ of animal? This point they are making actually undermines their own belief in animal ‘kinds’.

I had to explain what abiogenesis is on a few occasions during the hour and a half conversation. They had never heard of the word before and I had to keep referring back to it to iron out their confusion regarding creation and evolution.

So with all of the above points in place, one of the JWs said that even though finding out about all these things was interesting, and they confessed that some of the points I had made they had never heard of, there was nothing that they looked into that would cause them to change their faith. I made the point that it wouldn’t. But then I asked them why a god would make a whale with legs. She just said that it didn’t change her position on her beliefs. She said that the tail on humans can happen and that it is nothing out of the ordinary.

To make these conclusions in spite of the fact she obviously had no idea why she was rejecting them was very audacious. Their ignorance of the subject matter was stark, but it didn’t stop them just rejecting it anyway.

But then came the confession that exposes it all. What she said next explains their position very comprehensively. She said to me that after the last time they came to see me, she had asked herself if she now had to go into the deep and complex subject of science to be able to be sure that what she believes in is right. She then said that she realised that she doesn’t have to. She said that she doesn’t need to know everything about science. Her friend chimed in and said that it was too hard. They then said that there is so much to learn and that science was such a distraction from what they had already leaned about god, there is just too much to go into. One of them said that she would look into evolution if she found something that would cause her to question, and she would keep digging and keep going. But because there were some scientists that had studied evolution who had claimed to have seen so many inconsistencies, these scientists had decided to give the bible a chance and when they went through the bible they knew it was from god.

So as they had said that they didn’t feel the need to go into science they then tried to claim that they had been taught science when they had gone to school and they had been exposed to what the curriculum had taught them but they had found it very biased against creation. I didn’t bring up this point, but if they had learned anything about evolution, then the very simple facts that I was discussing with them would have been known. The fact that they had never heard of atavisms or abiogenesis shows that they really didn’t take in what they were being taught and that is why they were ignorant to these topics now.

But they honestly thought that what they learned at school and what they had learned on the internet was sufficient enough for them to reject the idea of evolution. The transparency as to why they were saying this was all too evident.

So then one of them confessed that because they have a personal relationship with god, to say that life wasn’t created was hurtful and that they were fulfilled in the knowledge they have already and they were not going to be waived by what evolutionists say or what evolutionists prove because there has been so many theories that have been readdressed in later years and they have been found to be incorrect or scientists change their theories.

Near to the end they said that they wanted “solid evidence” of evolution for them to change their mind with regards their faith. At this point I ask them what ‘solid evidence’ they are looking for. They had no answer apart from ‘solid evidence’. The only thing I can think of that would give them the evidence they require is for something to evolve right in front of them. That is the only thing that would convince them, and I’m sure that if that was even possible they would disregard that as well. The situation was impossible.

So in summery, they used their ignorance of the subject matter as a means to disregard it. They thought that they didn’t need to know about the evidence that would contradict their faith because if they were to find out about it then it would upset what they already have with their faith and that was not a situation they were happy to subject themselves to.

What a great way to face the challenge of evidence that disproves their belief. Don’t even bother looking at it just in case it contradicts what they already believe. I’m speechless.

17

Can't think how they will respond

by Giles Gray in

i've been chatting to the jws the past couple of weeks.the last time they called they showed me a video about a scientist who claimed that she had once been an atheist, but after studying with the jws she had changed her mind and now believed in an intelligent creator.

what had convinced her was the process that activates the functioning of the lungs just after a baby has been born.after we had watched the video, the jws said that there are many people who believe that creation indicates an intelligent designer.in reply i asked them what they thought about the 'unintelligent' aspects of creation and i went into a few examples.at first they tried to write things off to imperfection due to adamic sin, but as the conversation went on they slowly realised that arguing 'imperfection' wasn't an adequate explanation for the points i was making.to cut a long story short, i ended up sending them a video via email where professor dawkins comments on an autopsy that highlights the impracticality of the laryngeal nerve in giraffes.i also sent them evidence of vestigial limbs in whales and a short article about biological atavism.in addition, i sent them an article that coincidentally was on the bbc news a few days ago about a boy in india who had a 7 inch vestigial tail removed.

here is the article i sent them:-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3823461/the-teenager-7-inch-tail-18-year-old-finally-growth-removed-painful-sit-sleep.htmli'm really looking forward to seeing what they will come back with.

Giles Gray

Ruby

I'm sure they are saying all kind of things about me to each other. What I like to think about is what they will be thinking when they are alone with their thoughts.

How will they get the image of a 14 year old boy with a 7 inch tail out of their minds? How will they feel about the fact that a creature that only swims has vestigial legs? And Dawkins video demonstrates wonderfully the laryngeal nerve.

These points aren't necessarily related to science. They are just facts that are difficult to reconcile with how they perceive the Bible. So they can't really use their distrust of science to get around the problems these facts make for them.

In their more quiet monents they will be thinking about these things.

sir82

I remember the 3 H's. To become a JW people need to be Honest, Hungry and Humble.

The irony!

17

Can't think how they will respond

by Giles Gray in

i've been chatting to the jws the past couple of weeks.the last time they called they showed me a video about a scientist who claimed that she had once been an atheist, but after studying with the jws she had changed her mind and now believed in an intelligent creator.

what had convinced her was the process that activates the functioning of the lungs just after a baby has been born.after we had watched the video, the jws said that there are many people who believe that creation indicates an intelligent designer.in reply i asked them what they thought about the 'unintelligent' aspects of creation and i went into a few examples.at first they tried to write things off to imperfection due to adamic sin, but as the conversation went on they slowly realised that arguing 'imperfection' wasn't an adequate explanation for the points i was making.to cut a long story short, i ended up sending them a video via email where professor dawkins comments on an autopsy that highlights the impracticality of the laryngeal nerve in giraffes.i also sent them evidence of vestigial limbs in whales and a short article about biological atavism.in addition, i sent them an article that coincidentally was on the bbc news a few days ago about a boy in india who had a 7 inch vestigial tail removed.

here is the article i sent them:-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3823461/the-teenager-7-inch-tail-18-year-old-finally-growth-removed-painful-sit-sleep.htmli'm really looking forward to seeing what they will come back with.

Giles Gray

freddo

I don't think they will come back either. I have used this argument before and I never heard from the JW again.

Saying that, I really didn't think this pair would come back last weekend, so I might get lucky.

DOC

Putting doubt in the minds of these JWs is my intention. The impact that vestigial legs in whales had on them was quite a shocking thought. No exaggeration. Their reaction was clear to see.

And the information I sent them will stay with them for years. That is why I like to send the infornation via email. It's one thing pointing the facts out in conversation, it is another thing when they see actual pictures of something that contradicts a belief system.

So if they don't come back then I know what I've shown them will stay with them for a long time.

Half banana

That's a great point about snakes.

The other point I am keen to point out is the fact that a horse and a donkey can breed together, as well as a camel and a lama. If God created things according to their kind, how does this cross breeding happened?

A Ha -" You have already enjoyed much more success in the conversation than you could have ever hoped for."

I have indeed. But I used similar tactics with another JW a little while ago and we corresponded to and fro quite a few times. I managed to get all kinds of information over before he stopped.

17

Can't think how they will respond

by Giles Gray in

i've been chatting to the jws the past couple of weeks.the last time they called they showed me a video about a scientist who claimed that she had once been an atheist, but after studying with the jws she had changed her mind and now believed in an intelligent creator.

what had convinced her was the process that activates the functioning of the lungs just after a baby has been born.after we had watched the video, the jws said that there are many people who believe that creation indicates an intelligent designer.in reply i asked them what they thought about the 'unintelligent' aspects of creation and i went into a few examples.at first they tried to write things off to imperfection due to adamic sin, but as the conversation went on they slowly realised that arguing 'imperfection' wasn't an adequate explanation for the points i was making.to cut a long story short, i ended up sending them a video via email where professor dawkins comments on an autopsy that highlights the impracticality of the laryngeal nerve in giraffes.i also sent them evidence of vestigial limbs in whales and a short article about biological atavism.in addition, i sent them an article that coincidentally was on the bbc news a few days ago about a boy in india who had a 7 inch vestigial tail removed.

here is the article i sent them:-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3823461/the-teenager-7-inch-tail-18-year-old-finally-growth-removed-painful-sit-sleep.htmli'm really looking forward to seeing what they will come back with.

Giles Gray

scratchme

I'm deliberately keeping away from anything 'apostate' as it will send them running in a flash.

I am keeping to topics that anybody could use, or should I say, anybody who has taken just a little time to think about the world around them.

The interesting thing with the JWs who are visiting me is they have never heard of the points I am making. When I showed them a picture of whale vestiges, their mouths were wide open.

They won't be able to use the bible as an answer because the very reason I am showing them these things is to question if the bible is accurate.

So it will be interesting where they will take it.

17

Can't think how they will respond

by Giles Gray in

i've been chatting to the jws the past couple of weeks.the last time they called they showed me a video about a scientist who claimed that she had once been an atheist, but after studying with the jws she had changed her mind and now believed in an intelligent creator.

what had convinced her was the process that activates the functioning of the lungs just after a baby has been born.after we had watched the video, the jws said that there are many people who believe that creation indicates an intelligent designer.in reply i asked them what they thought about the 'unintelligent' aspects of creation and i went into a few examples.at first they tried to write things off to imperfection due to adamic sin, but as the conversation went on they slowly realised that arguing 'imperfection' wasn't an adequate explanation for the points i was making.to cut a long story short, i ended up sending them a video via email where professor dawkins comments on an autopsy that highlights the impracticality of the laryngeal nerve in giraffes.i also sent them evidence of vestigial limbs in whales and a short article about biological atavism.in addition, i sent them an article that coincidentally was on the bbc news a few days ago about a boy in india who had a 7 inch vestigial tail removed.

here is the article i sent them:-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3823461/the-teenager-7-inch-tail-18-year-old-finally-growth-removed-painful-sit-sleep.htmli'm really looking forward to seeing what they will come back with.

Giles Gray

I've been chatting to the JWs the past couple of weeks.
The last time they called they showed me a video about a scientist who claimed that she had once been an atheist, but after studying with the JWs she had changed her mind and now believed in an intelligent creator.
What had convinced her was the process that activates the functioning of the lungs just after a baby has been born.
After we had watched the video, the JWs said that there are many people who believe that creation indicates an intelligent designer.
In reply I asked them what they thought about the 'unintelligent' aspects of creation and I went into a few examples.
At first they tried to write things off to imperfection due to Adamic sin, but as the conversation went on they slowly realised that arguing 'imperfection' wasn't an adequate explanation for the points I was making.
To cut a long story short, I ended up sending them a video via email where Professor Dawkins comments on an autopsy that highlights the impracticality of the laryngeal nerve in giraffes.
I also sent them evidence of vestigial limbs in whales and a short article about biological atavism.
In addition, I sent them an article that coincidentally was on the BBC news a few days ago about a boy in India who had a 7 inch vestigial tail removed. Here is the article I sent them:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3823461/The-teenager-7-inch-TAIL-18-year-old-finally-growth-removed-painful-sit-sleep.html
I'm really looking forward to seeing what they will come back with.
So I wanted to ask the people on this forum what they anticipate the JWs' response might be.
I thought it would also be interesting to know how people on this forum would have answered these points when they were active JWs themseves.

Here is the Dawkins video:-
https://youtu.be/cO1a1Ek-HD0

28

I don't like the person i am becoming...

by SpunkedTeen in

jw
friends

i have not been active here lately just lurking mostly but i have no one to talk to and i need some help i guess.i started working out and became friends with my personal trainer(we went to school together).i started going out with him(lying to my mother about what i was doing,another thing to add to the list of lies,it's becoming too easy!

) and i notice i'm slowly becoming the worldy people that the jw's described.i've become very selfish and rude and very apathetic towards everything and everyone.i always thought the values that jw's taught were really good.if i cut ties with the only friend i have now , i would probably slip into a deep depression and i that is something that i want to avoid at all costs.i start university in january and my plan was to stick it out in the organisation until i got my degree and became fully independant but as of late a elder told me i am being considered to become a m.s and told me what i need to work on and since then the other elders have been nagging me to work on the same things.i'm trying to rid my self of my 'priveleges' in the cong but nothings working...if anyone has experienced a similar situation what advice would you give?

, oh and my mom was always super into the religion having been a pioneer and bethel worker for years but we went to the regional convention two weeks ago and now she is even more exasperating (for example a sister asked my why i was 19 years old and not a ms or serving at bethel yet, which is fine i've learnt how to deal with these questions but when i told my mother whom has always been content with me just being in the religion and never pushed me towards anything asked me if i was happy with what i was and if i would not be happier at bethel or regular pioneering.

Giles Gray

It is a lot easier said than done. You are in more of a tangled web than you might think.

Take some time out before making any hard decisions.

I suppose the first thing you need to do is to take an objective look at what you have been taught as a JW.

For example, are people in the religion really better morally than people who aren't? Why do you dislike what you are becoming? Is it that you don't like it or is it due to the religion? Is the religion's point of view correct? What is wrong with the person you are becoming? Are you really changing to being a more selfish person or are you just becoming an independant adult? If so is that wrong in itself?

Lots of questions. Take your time and good luck.

28

I don't like the person i am becoming...

by SpunkedTeen in

jw
friends

i have not been active here lately just lurking mostly but i have no one to talk to and i need some help i guess.i started working out and became friends with my personal trainer(we went to school together).i started going out with him(lying to my mother about what i was doing,another thing to add to the list of lies,it's becoming too easy!

) and i notice i'm slowly becoming the worldy people that the jw's described.i've become very selfish and rude and very apathetic towards everything and everyone.i always thought the values that jw's taught were really good.if i cut ties with the only friend i have now , i would probably slip into a deep depression and i that is something that i want to avoid at all costs.i start university in january and my plan was to stick it out in the organisation until i got my degree and became fully independant but as of late a elder told me i am being considered to become a m.s and told me what i need to work on and since then the other elders have been nagging me to work on the same things.i'm trying to rid my self of my 'priveleges' in the cong but nothings working...if anyone has experienced a similar situation what advice would you give?

, oh and my mom was always super into the religion having been a pioneer and bethel worker for years but we went to the regional convention two weeks ago and now she is even more exasperating (for example a sister asked my why i was 19 years old and not a ms or serving at bethel yet, which is fine i've learnt how to deal with these questions but when i told my mother whom has always been content with me just being in the religion and never pushed me towards anything asked me if i was happy with what i was and if i would not be happier at bethel or regular pioneering.

Giles Gray

Before dealing with your family you need to deal with yourself. You need to work out who you are and what you stand for, what you believe in.

This takes a lot of time so don't rush anything.

I'm sure others will follow on with some good advice but for now you need to anchor yourself first. A lot easier said than done.

Hope you find your way through it all. Sounds like you have a long road in front of you.

38

What is the biggest hypocrisy you have seen as a witness?

by HereIgo in

i have far too many to name, but ill start with obscene music, gambling and cussing like a sailor.

all the while preaching to "worldly people" about their impending death at armageddon.

thoughts?.

Giles Gray

A paedophile elder telling a courting couple that he would be down on them like a ton of bricks if they got up to no good...

while he was sexually abusing not only his own 8 year old daughter, but also her friends in the congregation when they went to his house to play.

77

Inappropriate Behavior

by rebelfighter in

jw
friends

now i know i am getting older or of the older generation.

i have had a very strange day with a lot of strange dealings with people with strange behavior today but this one incident was just over the top.

so i came out of a store in a busy shopping center.

Giles Gray

tornapart-" One of my favourite commercials was The Levi 501 in the Laundrette (1985)."

Try this version.

This advert was on British television in the mid 80s. Is it really that offensive?

https://youtu.be/oCemJAd3KZA